Accumulate Without Anxiety

[oba]

Hello,
We would just like to approach your forum for any insights and advice you may have on the subject of multiple bets/accumulators. Although we have read some threads here and information on other sites and have gathered that 'pros do it singly' - we want to play it dangerously and won't be persuaded so easily... :yikes:

But we have to admit our ignorance of practical matters so please don't hold back or limit your own observations merely to personal experiences of using accumulators.

What we really would like to pick your collected brains about (rather than how to pick or select horses for the bets) is how/where best to actually place bets on multiple horses, say in the region of £500+ each accumulator taking into account that we don't want to fall into the disrespectful gutter of not becoming welcome at the bookies.

Would you recommend going to the tracks to place such large bets - or is that not considered 'large' at all. Would it pose no problem to constantly place such a bet (we already hear you laugh out loud - 'it's the winning, not the placing that matters')?

How about splitting the bet up and spreading it about among highstreet bookies?

Really, this shows how green we are - The highstreet bookie will take an accumulator bet including half a dozen horses running a various tracks nationwide throughout the day; would those bookies actually at the track take accumulator bets including horses not running at that specific track?
Will on-track bookies pay out 'electronically' direct to any bank account or does it have to go through a cheque.... Do they pay out cash? Even with a successfully landed large bet?
What about highstreet bookies? How far can they be pushed before they stop playing?

What about tax issues? Is all returns made from gambling tax-free or does that only apply below a certain threshold or if gambling can be proven is not your primary income?

Anybody watch Lost? Eco - you bad boy. Anybody got a Scooby-doo what's going on?


We would really very much value any input you may have,
Thankyou for your time,
Oba

[sparkyminer]

Call me cynical but, I can smell a processed pork product on it's way.:wink :)

[oba]

'....The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young' Ford

We could call you cynical or cyclical, but it's probably all the same to you.

So we'll try again, this time with a little footnote... We have nothing to spice up. Nothing to sell. Nothing to push or shove.

We asked because of our ignorance on this particular subject and want to learn from you and others on this forum because it seemed (probably) the best/most interesting/most humorous and thus potentially the most rewarding place to start asking our questions.

So we just asked....
If anybody can, or is willing to engage us on the topic then we would really very appreciate any dialogue.
Though, please don't think that if we do not manage to respond as quickly as this that we do not value your feedback, just that we will only check this forum once a week (probably) every thursday.

Best of luck everyone.


'Before everything else, getting ready is the secret of success.' Ford too.

[bigcumba]

You could be right Sparky.... with an e-mail address that looks and sounds more like a 'business' name than a personal one, and a style of writing that says 'we' suggesting the same rather than 'I' as most folk would write.... still I'm prepared to give the benefit of the doubt for now as he / she hasn't done anything wrong yet.... but we'll be watching :)

[presto]

-we?
-bookies normally have a £200,000 max payout, so will probably take the bet.
-an accie is normally considered a mug bet aswell,
- £500 accie :hoho: - now thats a bit silly.
- i wouldn't bother about bookies not wanting your custom - they will probably welcome you with open arms.

no offence but you talk about being 'green' so why the big stakes - why not £1 bets.

[MarcusMel]

First Observation is that for each Bookie you need to read his terms and conditions. That is high street bookies have a max payout on any one bet.

Second observation is that you should go and learn something about probability.

Third observation in saying you wish to put 500+ on an accumlator would indicate more money than sense as you should only be betting a very small percentage of your bank on this type of event.

[presto]

we have read some threads here and information on other sites and have gathered that 'pros do it singly' - we want to play it dangerously

i think you will get the same reply from most people who know what they are talking about.

and IMO it's not 'playing it dangerously' when doing accies it's 'giving the bookie a nice big pension'.

just my opinion though :)

[MarcusMel]

Guaranteed winning horses, even if you have very good inside information are not graranteed to win.:doh

On course bookies are unlikly to accept your bet as they must always be able to cover it and be sure they have the correct information.

[presto]

you could use the exchanges to place your bet's (one after the other increasing stakes) - though you would need balls bigger than king kong to place the last selection on a winning run.

[presto]

Replying to Thread Accumulate Without Anxiety - 25 Minutes Ago

come on oba - it dosn't take that long to reply, forums a bit quiet ATM and i want something to read :)

[oba]

Thankyou for those.
Although we feel that many of you still harbour suspicions. Tee hee.

Marcus and Presto, thanyou for that initial input. Our 'greenery' comes from practical matters that we have already highlighted. Maybe it would help if you guys were to consider this thread as hypothetical rather than something that might inadvertantly cause someone to lose all their bank in one go - that would be a bit silly indeed - never bet more than you can effortlessly afford to lose without batting a eyelid.

£5? £500? £5000? Neither and all can be a 'bit silly' can't they? It all depends on your bank, right, and your ability at playing the game? So it's relative.

As for probability? Marcus, you as moderator already know full well that probability too, is only relative to the level intelligence/chaos ratio which exists within a specific system, along with the observers' ability to interpret that intelligence and thus change the ratio.
A blind person balancing on a barrel attempting to fire arrows at a target fifty feet away faces the same task as a highly trained marskmen with telescopic-laser guided-nightvision-acme-deluxe sate of the art weaponry but the probability of hitting centre changes dramatically.

As for any other issues we feel we have stumbled upon a myriad of assumptions (levels of sincerity/finances/intelligence/and that large accs are doomed to fail - when we actually asked, what if someone wanted to play at that level of gamemanship and then and how best to structure such a consistent specific assualt on a market successfully), which is fine if we knew you, but really, we would appreciate it if you could keep it objective and to the questions.

Nobody see Lost, then?


Thankyou, again.
Have fun.

[oba]

Marcus,
Thanks,
Can you confirm that 'On course' bookies will unlikely place such bets?

[oba]

Hey Presto!
Thats the spirit.... say again, 'one after the other'?
By that you suggest using multiple sites and increasing bets each on each exchange? Why do that though, is there any reason to stagger the bets that way?

[presto]

oncourse bookies are largely indipendant. so they will most likely have a lower max liability on a bet than an established bookie.

[oba]

Oh no.... just read your post in relation to mine: you were talking about £5.. £500 etc... ok understood.

We would love to carry on, but we will look in next week and hopefully continue... please do....

Regards,
Oba

[presto]

Hey Presto!
Thats the spirit.... say again, 'one after the other'?
By that you suggest using multiple sites and increasing bets each on each exchange? Why do that though, is there any reason to stagger the bets that way?

assuming a bookie won't take the bet - the exchanges will always take a bet, though there may be some trouble if you try and get more than £10k bet on.

what i meant by 'one race after the other was'. (example).

2:00 wol - £10 - evens - red rum
now if 'red rum' wins the 2:00 at wolves we would go on to the next race, with our £10 origional stake and the £10 profit (£20 in total).

3:00 asc - £20 - 5/1 - russian missile
same as above - if it wins we stake it all on the next race etc......

.....................................
you could spread it out between bookies / exchanges.
but in general the exchanges give better odd's than the bookies.
this also gives you more controle over the bet:
eg - say the first 4 races come in and you have £10,000 in your account - would you risk it all on that 5/1 shot that is next up? if you put 5 selections in an accie then you would have to 'let it ride' - but if you put the bets on race by race, you can stop at any time. you could even 'bank' £5k and bet the other £5k - so at least you won't end up with nothing.

[MarcusMel]

My experience of on course bookies is limited, but was treated with suspision :rolleyes:

The betting market changes as money is placed. High Street bookies will off load potential debts by placing bets on track and shifting the price to something more suited to their needs. If you win too much bookies can refuse to accept your future bets. This is not the case on the betting exchanges. For high street bookies if you are sucessful it is best to keep a bets small but spread accross several bookies.

[Win2Win]

Are we talking to Spock? :doh

[Fadetoblack]

We?

Definitely a cult methinks.

[MarcusMel]

As for probability? Marcus, you as moderator already know full well that probability too, is only relative to the level intelligence/chaos ratio which exists within a specific system, along with the observers' ability to interpret that intelligence and thus change the ratio.
A blind person balancing on a barrel attempting to fire arrows at a target fifty feet away faces the same task as a highly trained marskmen with telescopic-laser guided-nightvision-acme-deluxe sate of the art weaponry but the probability of hitting centre changes dramatically.


If you change any detail of a system is it still the same system? The answer to that is No. The probability changes as you say but expeirence tends to show that it is :Dprobably:D for the worse as the more factors you introduce to a system the less stable it becomes unless you can show correlation between factors.

[bigcumba]

Are we talking to Spock? :doh

close... Oba Wan Kebaby ...

Live long and prosper..

[Fadetoblack]

http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~pjka/icons/vg.gif

[MattR]

We?

Definitely a cult methinks.

I nearly misread that! :D

[Fadetoblack]

I definitely didn't almost mistype it! I've learned my lesson!

[sparkyminer]

Are we talking to Spock? :doh
I was thinking more of HAL9000.:D

[davidsteel]

Christ what was that all about..

[Win2Win]

Christ what was that all about..
Did Christ register last night!!! Must have missed it :rolleyes:

[bigcumba]

I banned him for constantly trying to bypass the swear filter.... I think he got a bit cross... :wink

[Win2Win]

:yikes: :yikes: :yikes: :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

[Fadetoblack]

Did Christ register last night!!! Must have missed it :rolleyes:

You know he's been a member a very long time. Sure wasn't I always talking to him?

[Street cry]

he liked sweets , but not maltesers :yikes: :yikes:

[bigcumba]

If you look closely enough through the forum you'll also find 3 wise men and a pregnant virgin... :yikes:

[Win2Win]

you'll also find 3 wise men ....

Now we know it's a myth :D

[oba]

Hey up again,
We have just read your posts and was wondering why no one has even bothered to respond regarding the actual questions we put to you, apart from the two guys (presto and marcus - which by the way, we do agree with you on what you said regarding increasing instabilty, which of course is the opposite of increasing the order/chaos ratio inherent within a system. Not that by the word 'system' did we mean to imply a methodological 'system' used to determine the outcome of racing for instance, rather we meant the entire system under observation as a whole, our fault, maybe we should have been clearer).
We're also sure no one else actually meant to appear rude or hasty to judge... did you now? We have been polite and we asked for objectivity regarding common sense questions from a group of people who we think have important knowledge about something we would like to learn about and maybe contribute too and... A cult? Now is that really necessary or witty, or clever? And besides Fadetoblack, you're the one sporting an instantly recognised icon of neo-fascist global imperialism.

So, what about what we asked about tax issues? Would someone please be kind enough to pull their eyes away from the racing post for one minute, go on, you can do it.... it's gone mid-day anyway, if you haven't worked out today's gameplan already you never will.
Will all returns escape the clutches of the tax-man, or as we asked, is that determined by an amount threshold, or if gambling can be proven to not constitute your primary income?
We have loads of questions about accumulators, the best intelligent use of exchanges, staking plans for single bets, weird and convoluted perms and all sorts, but maybe we should just write you some poetry instead.

Hello Keith. Still looking for signals from your own home planet?

[mathare]

Gambling profits in the UK are tax free.

And if you have all these questions why not post them?

[Onlyforfun]

The title of the thread is "Accumulate Without Anxiety". The premise of doing this by backing accas is fundamentally at odds with this.

Maybe your bookmaker will "Accumulate Without Anxiety" but you won't if you go through with this, end of.

Sadly I think few have taken you seriously when saying you know nothing about gambling, never mind horses, then wanting to know how to get £500 bets on accas. Maybe you merely wish to launder money?

As for tax, the revenue may be able to get you if you don't personally place the bets and merely put up the stakes and take a share of the proceeds as this would constitute an investment rather than a bet. Make sure you have a proper syndicate agreement drawn up to avoid this, although if you lose too much I could use your Cap Gains allowance....

[oba]

Well, we just wanted to go through the questions we had already asked satisfactorily first.

Thanx for that about the non-taxable uk gambling laws, but do they really work as such, so completely and without exception? We don't doubt what you have just said for the non-pro gambling punter or Jo-public on a weekend flutter, but would like to here clarification from someone earning (for instance over £50K per year from racing) or someone whose income solely derives (a primary income) from gambling.
Maybe Mathare that does apply to you (and why not!) in which case no disrepect indended. But we would still be very grateful for a second or third or fourth opinion.

[vegyjones]

Some of the information you require can be found by checking the Terms & Conditions of Bookmaking websites! :)

I watch Lost (Sometimes) - Thanks! :D

[mathare]

Why wouldn't the law work like that without exception?

You'd be best off keeping a record of all deposits to and withdrawals from bookies accounts and keeping evidence of all cash bets so you have an audit trail proving your income is the proceeds of gambling in case the tax man asks. But there is no upper limit on the amount you can make before the tax man wants a share.

[mathare]

Just been back and re-read the opening post in this thread and it's raised a few questions:

1) Who is 'we'?
2) Why do you want to use accas when you acknowledge the pros do it with singles?
3) How many selections in the average acca?
4) Why stakes of £500+? How big is the betting bank you are using?

A few other points...

1) On course bookies will pay out in cash. They take in cash and balance their books through the odds. Only a small fly-by-night firm wouldn't be able to pay out there and then. But you may encounter maximum payout limits.
2) Accas multiply the bookies edge/margin which is why they love them. If the bookmaker has a 10% margin on each single he has a 21% margin on a double, a 33% margin on the treble, 46% of the fourfold, 61% on the fivefold and a massive 77% on the sort of sixfold you mention above.
3) How far can you push a bookie? Depends somewhat on your relationship with him I guess. Making mug bets will mean you can get away with a bit more but certainly your account can be limited or closed after a significant period of winning. How long and how much depends very much on the circumnstances.

[oba]

Thanx Onlyforfun,

Just for the record, no we have no syndicate going on. (And the use of the word 'you' throughout this does not mean to imply you personally Onlyforfun).
Thanx.

We expected that reaction before we joined up and did try to offer a token gesture of self-deprecation as a way of recognising the obvious nonsenseness of our opening gambit. We don't challenge that at all. And completely understand.
And yet we also made it quite clear that we nothing about the practical matters which we were asking about (hence the asking about), which is completely different from knowing nothing about the subject, right?. Knowing how to successfully bake a cake is only potentially tasty if you have never been to, or do not know how to use a supermarket.

Besides, rather than mete out a string of questions we thought it more fun to push the credulity buttons from the get-go. Our interest in accs extends only as much as our interest in other forms of betting (see above, we have questions about lays to).
We wanted to consider the potential of the high-returning acc - that's sensible right? If you don't plan to succeed you will succeed in failing.
We were asking about matters which should form the core of any long-term strategy; surely you guys have an almost military approach to working the market and if not, why not?
Consider the possibles (however unlikely you or others may think) and plan accordingly.

We came here wanting to consider how to potentially and successfully work, (nothing wrong or off-the-wall about that, you would think) yet because we choose to use as an example a relatively (lets face facts) small amount of money we get treated as a fool (or worse) for wanting to dare to approach the situation with forethought as to how to structure betting and succeed and what's more, to succeed well working with pounds, rather than to fail pitifully with pennies.

You may not give us any credibility (that's ok, you don't need to, and we don't care) but we have actually been asking very pertinent and common sense questions that should come as a matter of course for anyone interested in knowing how to successfully work the market; to know its limits, its regulations, what it will and what it will not do, its rules and what rules can be bent etc.

Which, could we go back to please: it seems to have been suggested that (not that we have any intention of doing this by the way - not yet in any case) it is quite reasonable to lump on 10K on a single exchange.... could this be done with a subsequent winning return regulary?
And there's no reason not to ask: would the exchanges regulary accept winning accs (say 50/1 - 200/1) with £500 down?
Straightfoward question.
If yes, can you recommend the best exchanges?
If no, can you suggest methods with which to 'bend' the rules?

And surely, even if you think it pointless bothering with us personally, maybe from a theoretical excersise it would still be valuable to discuss the (legal application) of optimum strategy - even with (esp. with using £000s accs and/or singles involving multiple £0000s) such an stake/level of gamemanship - go on, dare you, no one will hold it to you or expect you to actually go through with your own advice.

And £500 is the same if it is lost on an acc or an single each-way.
Whenever any amount of money is handed over to the bookies it must immediately become considered 'lost' anyway.

What's the mantra?
Never bet anything which you can't comfortably and effortlessly afford to lose without thinking twice about it.

In which case anxiety does not even come into the equation.

[mathare]

would the exchanges regulary accept winning accs (say 50/1 - 200/1) with £500 down?
Straightfoward question.
If yes, can you recommend the best exchanges?
If no, can you suggest methods with which to 'bend' the rules?
There are no rules to bend here as far as I can tell.

When it comes to the exchanges you have two main players:
1) Betfair - the big boys on the block and I would estimate that 90% or more of exchange traffic goes through them. They don't have the concept of multiple bets. You want a double? Back the first horse and it if wins dump all your winnings on the second horse but they won't do it for you.
2) Betdaq - the second best exchange. The HCI is worse, the odds perhaps comparable with Betfair but with a lower liquidity but they do offer multiple bets. I've never placed a Betdaq multiple though.

If you want an exchange you have to go for Betfair. It's the only place you can be sure of getting lumpy bets on at decent odds. Betdaq is too hit and miss for my liking.

[oba]

Thankyou.

[roma]

Exchanges will accept anything. They earn their money from charging commission so the more everybody stakes, the happier they are. They do not care if it is you who wins or the person who took your bet, they will get commission off one of you.

The only question is whether you can get anyone to take your bet. Normally as long as you put it on fairly close to the off, there is plenty of money around (several tens of thousands on each side for the favourites) so if you accept the prices offered you should have no problems. If you are trying to get a higher/lower price for a large stake it is sometimes better not to try for it all at once, or the weight of your money can push the price the wrong way.

As for tax, I once asked this question of a tax inspector. He said that if they charged tax on winnings they would also have to give people tax rebates every time they bought a losing lottery ticket. Overall, since the population as a whole loses more than it wins, HM Inspector would be paying out, not gaining. Therefore, in the UK it is tax free and not likely to change.

You know, Oba, nobody on here is paid to answer your questions ... and you are not paying anything to be here ... why should anybody take their noses out of the Racing Post to answer your questions if they do not want to?

[oba]

Though we feel slightly uneasy about relying on just one site for placing accs/multiples.... can you or anyone else recommend decent (clean and relatively liquid) exchanges that will cater for such bets.
Also what are your thoughts on using online bookies/exchanges for other bets based on your own experiences?
Please add to any comments already made as to any of the above too - don't worry too much if you repeat yourself as we want to know what as many people think as possible.


Regards,
Oba

[oba]

Thankyou Roma,
we appreciate that, cheers.

No of course you are quite right. No one is obliged whatsover. Being a discussion forum we thought the chances were reasonably in our favour.
We were of course being jovial and in no way demanding and we did say 'please'.

So, thankyou for doing so.

[oba]

Thankyou for everyone's time who did so,
will check in next week hopefully.

All the best.

[roma]

Betfair has the most "liquidity" ie the most money being offered, therefore easiest to get your bets matched, also the best prices.

Betdaq is an alternative exchange if you want one.

Online bookies have limits on how much they will let you stake. This varies according to the bookie and the odds on the particular bet. Of course you can split your stake between various bookies. If you were to start to win a great deal without losing much I believe they may politely ask you to take your custom elsewhere ... but if you are doing accumulators, I imagine a lot of them will lose and you just have the occasional big winner so you may not have that problem.

I have read elsewhere on this forum that Betfair has an independent guarantor system so that any money you have in your account with them would be protected if they went out of business. I haven't checked this for myself but if you do check this with them, perhaps it will reassure you about relying on just one site.

This is not true of the bookies, you would probably lose any money in accounts you had with them if they failed.

[Win2Win]

I know of no pro's that profit from acca's apart from the odd Trixie or double. If you know a horse will win, why would you want to add extra risk, and decrease the odds in your favour?

You can win £1Million a day, it is TAX FREE.

[mathare]

Roma is right - accounts with Betfair are ring-fenced. Not sure if this is also true of Betdaq in the light of the Sporting Options collapse and debacle.

As for the bookies - stick with the big names and not the small operations and you'll be fine. They have maximum payout limits in place to assist them when it comes to being able to payout. But this does mean you need to watch the odds and stakes on your accas. A £500 acca could easily hit the maximum payout limits which may be £100,000 for some bookies. I think the big 3 (Will Hill, Ladbrokes, Coral) are likely to be higher at around £250k. It also depends on the sport in question with the limits being highest for racing and football