Double Stake Bets - Should They Stay or Should They Go?

[Ada]

Do you think June's Joint Effort Game was more enjoyable/competitive with the inclusion of the Double Stake Bets, or not?
Would you like to see them as a permanent part of the Joint Effort Game from now on?

Please express your view in the Poll above and please feel free to add any comments.

[Ada]

Personally, I think they are worth keeping.
They've certainly kept the Leaders Table more 'fluid' and give the players nearer to the bottom of the table an incentive to carry on playing, in the hope they can land a high odds 2pts EW winner, and launch themselves into a more competitive position.

[Win2Win]

A JOKER once a month worth X3 stake .... I'll shut up now with my silly ideas

[Bill]

I would keep it in but restrict it to a win only selection. This would mean that the winner was the best player in the month and not the luckiest. And it would mean that players would think twice before selecting an outsider at huge odds if they were not to be awarded place points. They could still select each way but only at a one point stake.

[seagoon]

fine as it is

[vegyjones]

I like Bill's idea, but wouldn't be averse to keeping them the way they are. Certainly add an extra dimension to the JE.

[Laf]

I voted keep them in but I think Bill's point about making them win only is a fair one and is worth looking at. Wouldn't bother me either way though.

[scoobydoo]

I think it has made it more interesting Ada. Keep it the way it is would be fine for me. Although tbf, I haven't hit a winner since 1986

[Ada]

I too agree with Bill's comment which definitely merits consideration in possible future games.
In the mean time I have to make a decision on July's game, which will be based both on the statistics/trends of June's game and the results of the Poll

Meanwhile here's another spin on the game and where I make something simple sound fantastically complicated....

Each player starts with a POT of 60pts (for a 30 day month)
The POT contains the players STAKE money.
When a player's POT reaches ZERO their game is over for the month.

ONE bet a day can be posted (plus of course reserves), of which the stake can be between a MINIMUM of 1pt and a MAXIMUM of 4pts.
Bets available:
1pt, 2pt, 3pt or 4pt WIN ONLY
1pt, 2pt, 3pt or 4pt PLACE ONLY
1pt Each Way or 2pt Each Way

A 60pt POT will cover a combination of 1pt and 2pt WIN & PLACE ONLY and 1pt EACH WAY bets throughout the whole of the month.

However, mismanagement of the POT, by posting too many LOSING 3pt & 4pt WIN & PLACE ONLY and 2pts EACH WAY bets, will result in the POT reaching zero before the last day of the month, thus ending that player's game.

Each player has a separate BANK which will contain/record winnings (profit) from successful bets AND losing bet stakes.
Stakes from winning bets are returned to the POT.

It is the contents of the players' BANKs at the end of the month which will determine the winner and runner-up.
Players' BANKs must be showing a POSITIVE total to qualify for the 1st & 2nd prizes.


I'm not sure if this will deter players from lumping on high odds outsiders with 4pt Win and/or 2pt EW bets as those lower down the Leaders Table are naturally going to rely on an element of luck to improve their position by posting such bets.
Not ALL these high stake bets are going to win so the only sure thing is that players who frequently post these types of bet are likely to see their POT reach zero and their game over long before the last day of the month.

After all, the primary aim of the game is to keep ALL (or as many as possible) players interested in the game and participating until the last day, which HAS to include a chance for losing players to improve their positions, even if it is achieved by luck alone (I'm afraid).

[Godspot]

The way I see it & no offence to anyone but personally, I think we should double the Win stake to 2 points regardless.

Say, a 30-day month

A 1pt Win player a day is having 30 chances of a return & a possibility of losing that amount a month.

A 1pt EW player a day is having 60 chances of a return etc etc

With this NEW Double Stake lark (which I voted for, not fussy really, I’ll adapt to anything?)

Your 1 pt Win player for 24 days [24] & 6 Double Stakes [12] could lose 36 points in a month but

A 1 pt EW player for 24 days [48] & 6 Double Stakes [24] could lose 72 points.

That’s twice as many spins of the coin, imho

To create a level playing field the Win bet needs to be doubled to 2 pt.

[Ada]

To create a level playing field the Win bet needs to be doubled to 2 pt.

Point taken GS, but then the winning bets payouts become disproportionate.....

If the stake for a single WIN bet is 2pts and the stake for a single EACH WAY (1pt EW) is also 2pts, then.....

Take an 8/1 winner...
The WIN bet will produce a PROFIT of 16pts
The EACH WAY bet will produce a PROFIT of 10pts
If the horse places...
The EACH WAY bet will produce a PROFIT of 1pt

Surely people will realise that there's not much point placing the EACH WAY bet as the most they can win is 10pts, when, for the SAME outlay they could win 16pts.
The consolation of profiting by just 1pt (half your initial outlay) if the horse places hardly seems worth the effort to me.
I'd rather sacrifice profiting by 1pt in the hope of winning an extra 6pts by placing the WIN bet instead of the EACH WAY.

By the way GS, did you receive the Email I sent you last Sunday?
If you have, I guess you're not interested in progressing any further, as I haven't received any reply from you.

[Ada]

Analysis of Double Stake Bets in June Joint Effort Game

66 out of the possible 72 Double Stake (DS) bets allowed were posted.
Of these 66...
28 were 2pt WIN ONLY (7 won 25%; 21 lost)
38 were 2pt EACH WAY (3 won 7.89%; 6 placed 15.79%; 29 lost)

Highest Winning Odds
The 3 highest winning odds of each type of bet were:

WIN ONLY
Normal 1pt WIN: 14/1, 12/1, 11/1 (which when added equal 37pts)
DS 2pt WIN: 7/1, 13/2, 4/1 (which when added equal 35pts)

EACH WAY WIN
Normal 1pt EW: 33/1, 16/1, 14/1 (which when added equal 78.75pts)
DS 2pt EW: 16/1, 12/1, 3/1 (which when added equal 77.5pts)

EACH WAY PLACED (at 1/4 SP)
Normal 1pt EW: 50/1, 40/1, 20/1 (which when added equal 24.5pts)
DS 2pt EW: 33/1, 20/1, 14/1 (which when added equal 27.5pts)

The numbers above show that players posted 'normal' 1pt WIN and 1pt EACH WAY winning bets at significantly higher odds than winning Double Stake bets.
They also show that when the payout of these odds are added together and compared, the totals are remarkably close, which says to me that there was no significant luck factor or points advantage gained by the Double Stakes bets.

By comparing these figures in future games, if they start to show significant bias towards the DS bets with regards to the odds and pay out ratio, then the game structure may have to be tweaked.

So my decision is....

The July Joint Effort Game will be played EXACTLY the same as the June Game, with each player once again being allowed to post UP TO 6 Double Stake bets during the month.

[scoobydoo]

Nice one Ada...interesting. I'm aiming for a winner in July, I don't ask for much!

[MarcusMel]

Re: The 60 point sugestion, I did have a similar thought along the lines of making it 'real' players start with a Bank, bet as they much or as little of the bank as they please, although one point decucted for each non-betting day to make it fair to those who try to pick winners. But then I thought administering that would be messy. Good practise for members but a nightmare for the administrator(s).

Its a good competition and if it aint broke don't fix it :D Why complain about a competition that is free? Surprised that more members are not doing it, after all its free.