Monthly membership?

[Bradders]

I frequently sign up for a days membership when off work in order to have a few bets. I've often read about other sucessful systems though which are placed in what seems commonly know to be 'upstairs'. I just wondered if this area was only available to monthly members or daily members as well for the duration of the day they join?

If it's only available to monthly members I think I'll take the plung and join for the month and probably thereafter. It seems from what I've heard Big C's system is too good to miss for one!!! :)

[Win2Win]

Only monthly members as it'll take you that long to get through it all :D

[Bradders]

Cheers Keith there goes me signing up! :D

[icebreaker]

I've often read about other sucessful systems though which are placed in what seems commonly know to be 'upstairs'.

Which begs the question - naive though it is - "Why do some members (who are not Win2Win management) post their interesting stuff only in the upstairs area" ? This is a genuine question ......... not fishing or trying to be confrontational or anythin'.

I think I could guess the answer.

[bigcumba]

I know my own reasons for keeping my systems upstairs, but can't seak for anyone else, but I'm still going to say - start guessing! :)

[mathare]

"Why do some members (who are not Win2Win management) post their interesting stuff only in the upstairs area" ?

As a mod am I still allowed to answer?

Tough, I'm going to anyway :D

The stuff I post upstairs I regard as quality work. I'm no tipster, I'm an analyst really, that's my strong point. The stuff I do is what I regard as quality Excel spreadsheets that I spend a lot of my own spare time developing. As such I am not going (or really willing) to give it away for free. I recognise the valuable lessons I have learned on this forum and also acknowledge that most of that knowledge has come from the upstairs (members) area of the forum so I tend to repay my debts there in the only way I know how - with spreadsheets and expertise that I believe will benefit fellow members.

That's not to say I don't participate downstairs. I just save the best for members. After all any guest can freeload off the downstairs forum and if I were to post my spreadsheets down there then literally anyone on the web can have a copy. By posting upstairs I feel I can trust those who can access the stuff I post more, and feel they will acknowledge the effort involved more and not distribute my hard work willy-nilly.

[icebreaker]

Thank you, Mat, for your well-structured reply. However..............

I spend a lot of my own spare time developing. As such I am not going (or really willing) to give it away for free.

the issue with the above is that all across the web in the true communal spirit of open-source ideology people do just that every day...... ie, "give it away for free". In the downstairs area on here aren't there many people publishing their work and knowledge for universal perusal?

Then again, it is of course your prerogative to post wherever you think is fitting. Far be it from me to criticise.

[bigcumba]

the issue with the above is that all across the web in the true communal spirit of open-source ideology people do just that every day...... ie, "give it away for free". .

I would suggest that doesn't really apply to gambling :)

Have to add another reason - I actually pay for the software I use for my systems, so why should I give the best of what I get from that away to everyone... unless I was to set up my own website and charge for that info?

[mathare]

the issue with the above is that all across the web in the true communal spirit of open-source ideology people do just that every day...... ie, "give it away for free".

True, very true. I used to do a lot of work on/with open-source software myself so I know where you are coming from.

I could sell a lot of the stuff I do on Ebay and make money off it that way. I have approximately 50-60 football systems in development or under test for example. I could sell each of these on Ebay but I have no plans to. Some will be released for the forum in general, as I acknowledge that all I have learned has not been exclusively from the members and non-members need to have some idea of what there is on offer. Many will be posted upstairs though.

I am not in the business of system/spreadsheet development for greed like many Ebay sellers. I simply want to repay my knowledge debts in the best way I can.

Call it selfish if you like but my best work stays upstairs as that way I know someone has paid someone else to get to that info. Rightly or wrongly I fear that stuff I post downstairs, certainly downloads that I have put much of my free time into, could easily appear on a guest's website who claims the work as his own. True, that could happen with members but at least then I know they have paid a premium to someone, even if it isn't me, to get hold of it in the first place.

[bigcumba]

. Rightly or wrongly I fear that stuff I post downstairs, certainly downloads that I have put much of my free time into, could easily appear on a guest's website who claims the work as his own.

That has already happened with Merlin's systems a few months ago....

[mathare]

Thank you, Mat, for your well-structured reply.

I meant to thank you for this BTW Ice, I have been out drinking all night and am half-cut at best :D

[vegyjones]

By posting upstairs I feel I can trust those who can access the stuff I post more, and feel they will acknowledge the effort involved more and not distribute my hard work willy-nilly.

Guess I shouldn't have been putting it all on the Betfair Forum then

[bigcumba]

What? You put Mathare's willy-nilly on the Betfair forum?

[vegyjones]

In 2 threads, he's got a big willy-nilly

I mean a lot of willy-nilly :D

[icebreaker]

Would it be that you believe the prices/odds of your selections would be adversely affected by being seen by a wider audience?

Heh, incidentally, I wasn't for one moment insinuating in my previous message that your postings in the "downstairs" area were "UNinteresting".

:)

[bigcumba]

Would it be that you believe the prices/odds of your selections would be adversely affected by being seen by a wider audience?

Heh, incidentally, I wasn't for one moment insinuating in my previous message that your postings in the "downstairs" area were "UNinteresting".

:)

No worries mate :) . Regarding the prices / odds - yes, this week I had a couple of 25/1 winners - if everyone was lumping on these then the value could go a bit - especially the extra value on Betfair - that's one reason. Another one is pretty much covered by Mathare's post above - putting all my systems together takes up from 3 to 5 hours a night depending on the amount of racing and numbers of qualifiers - that amount of hard work isn't going to be given away to everyone for free and while my systems have nothing to do with Keith and I get nothing from him for keeping them in the members area, if the news of them doing well encourages a few folk to join and have a look, then that's good - the only benefit I get from that is a few more rep points at best and a warm glow when it all goes right, knowing I've helped folk make a few quid extra for their monthly membership cost.

There is actually a 3rd reason, but that's between me and my shadow..... :wink

[icebreaker]

No worries mate :) if everyone was lumping on these then the value could go a bit - especially the extra value on Betfair

Y'see, BigC, the problem with this is the inference that other winning selections/systems posted on the DOWNSTAIRS area would suffer similar value reduction. If this were to be the case then everybody should belt-up, keep their own counsel, and not post up anything (Racing related) on an internet forum. Thus, proceeding from this premise, the logical conclusion is that all open communities and fora on the Net are self-harming (in a "Pop Will Eat Itself" kind of way) and should shut down.

So, why don't you just start your own tipping service on a website and limit your viewers to those paying you a scrip?

[vegyjones]

So, why don't you just start your own tipping service on a website and limit your viewers to those paying you a scrip?

Because he likes the company here! :D

[bigcumba]

So, why don't you just start your own tipping service on a website and limit your viewers to those paying you a scrip?

Partly because those members upstairs have become friends over the time I've spent on here, partly because I had a bit of a tough time a couple of years ago and those folk helped me through it, so this is I guess my way of repaying that to some extent, but who knows - never say never.... :)

[mathare]

So, why don't you just start your own tipping service on a website and limit your viewers to those paying you a scrip?

I understand what you are saying by this and why you are asking but the thing with this forum is it is much more than tips. Between us we could get the winner in every race due to sheer numbers but what you get here is advice to go with the tips.

I am more than happy to lead a newbie through the potential minefields of staking, systems etc but what I can't do is pick a winner to save my life if given a horse race to analyse. A lot of the work I do, like TH, builds on members systems and as such I feel compelled to keep my findings upstairs as they would mean little downstairs or would give away "secrets" that Keith wants members to pay for.

It all sounds very cliquey but it isn't really. People are free to stay downstairs and pick up the great selections and info that comes in down here but by joining up and taking part upstairs you will find there is a hell of a lot more to learn and a greater support network.

I don't have to keep my work upstairs. It's not as though I get any commission or anything out of it. I just feel that the members are those who have paid and so are obviously willing to learn and are prepared to make the most of the opportunities offered to them.

[tophatter]

I do most of my proper work upstairs as my field is really working with Keiths Pro-losers system. Im a proven losing punter when it comes to form reading and tipping - I know that because i used to lose quite a bit each week so I tend to just post the odd fun bit downstairs and join in the banter and debate downstairs because if you are not a member then my more serious posts would mean absolutley nothing to you if I posted them down here.

The reason I try and help a lot of members upstairs is simple - It is my way showing my gratitude to Keith for the hard work he puts into the website and forum although he keeps hinting about brown envelopes! I also enjoy trying to help others as corny as it sounds it is very rewarding.

[GlosRFC]

It's pretty unlikely that a single tip posted on the internet is going to make that much difference to the price of a horse, given the amount of money that's gambled as a whole across the industry. Yes, it could conceivably affect the price of a horse on the exchanges but, in that instance, as you're effectively the bookmaker, aren't you the one that's dictating what the price is anyway?

Have to agree with that post that just appeared above mine though - I guess most people post their stuff upstairs because, as members, they know the other people better than they do those lurking downstairs. It's kinda like a club within a club :)

[icebreaker]

It's kinda like a club within a club :)

And I wouldn't want to join the kind of club that would have me as a member (qv Groucho Marx) :)

So, could BigC or somebody address the question as posted in my previous post as to if posting selections/systems in the downstairs area is injurious to value, why should we post at all? Seeing, like, as this value aspect seems to be the reason why some posters post only in the upstairs area.

Yes in fairness, I take the point that some of you feel obligated to Keith and all that. But the cynical would say that you are paying him thirty a month anyway to erase that sense of obligation.

[GlosRFC]

And I wouldn't want to join the kind of club that would have me as a member (qv Groucho Marx) :)

I wouldn't want to associate with me either - that's why I tend to lurk in the cupboard under the stairs. And I'm not convinced it does affect the value.

Unless they're each lumping 10 grand on each time.

To be fair, they've all posted their stuff downstairs in the past and will probably do so again in the future. EYR, for instance, still posts his ratings in the fun bets most days and there's some quality stuff in the pro bets forum too plus there's the added bonus that all of Vegy's selections are guaranteed lays. BigC used to post up his ratings down below too so I guess the reason he doesn't do it so often now is because a) it took him hours and he'd probably rather be doing other things than throwing a few scraps to the rest of us and b) he wasn't given much credit when things went right but got quite a few brickbats on the odd occasions when his ratings didn't go according to plan.

The other advantage of the upstairs area is that it must keep the chatter down to a reasonable level - less chance of non-horsey folks like me butting in with their extremely dubious selections for example. :D

[bigcumba]

if posting selections/systems in the downstairs area is injurious to value, why should we post at all?

I would say that value is only going to be lost if you are proven successful, no one is going to back your selections if you show a loss. So a lot of folk on here won't be making any difference to the prices, whereas the successful people here could make a difference if enough people weer to get wind of the 'good thing' - in the same way that it happens with Pricewise in the RP.... not that I'm comparing myself or anyone else here to PW But we all know that to get the best from his selections you have to be on them at the earlierst opportunity as the odds tumble once the cat is out the bag so to speak.

Yes in fairness, I take the point that some of you feel obligated to Keith and all that. But the cynical would say that you are paying him thirty a month anyway to erase that sense of obligation.

I'd be surprised if anyone here thought like that, but maybe I'm not cynical enough to think like that. Anyone who feels that way is never going to join something like Win2Win as they will always be looking for the 'catch'.

[GlosRFC]

Can't believe what I read here...people really sell Excel spreadsheets on eBay? What a bunch of sharks I bet most of 'em are poorly designed, ill-conceived, and rarely do what the purchasers intended for them to do. If I wanted a bespoke spreadsheet, I'd either do it myself or pick Mathare's brains 'cos that lad's a guru when it comes to that kind of thing.

The more I read about eBay, the more convinced I am that it's probably responsible for the more petty crime in this country than drugs now - after all it has to be the biggest fence of stolen goods despite their protestations. I appreciate that some of the sellers are entirely genuine and that there probably are a few bargains to be had but I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole. And particularly not after wandering around the local car-boot a few weeks ago and watching all the wanna-be Delboy's clutching computer printouts of their priceless "antiques" and assorted tatt for fear that some IT-savvy whizzkid was reselling it at vast profit on eBay :D

[mathare]

Can't believe what I read here...people really sell Excel spreadsheets on eBay?

Yes, very much so.

I have seen staking calculators and staking plans for sale, all in Excel form. Some with screenshots that make the stuff look amatuer really. And often for a tenner a time.

It really is amazing what tat appears on Ebay but if people are stupid enough to buy it then what can you do?

[bigcumba]

if people are stupid enough to buy it then what can you do?

Join in and take more money of the gullible eejits? :D

[tophatter]

I don't feel obligated to Keith, It is just that most of my "good" stuff is related to his pro-losers system. I doubt posting anything in the forum downstairs would lead to value errosion as there are so many different horses you could bet on and lets face it most of us are small stake punters. Betfair can trade £100,000's per race me and Kered aint going to shift the market are we?

All this open source stuff is a load of rubbish anyway. Most stuff is free on the internet because it is a load of rubbish. I can read some Americans diary free of charge but all the good stuff is charged for.

The amount of work Keith puts in for £35 is amazing. Lets put it this way he does all the donkey work that would probably use up many hours of my week even if I knew what I was doing. Then we have the website itself and the forum which is a bolt on of the actual racing club itself. So no one has to join to enjoy a top class forum and website but if you do you get a load of systems and a nice extra forum too. Seems pretty fair to me - a lot of people would be charging more that what us members pay just for the free stuff that is given out here.

[icebreaker]

Fair 'nuff. I asked a question at the beginning of the thread and everyone who replied did so with balanced, sensible and sound answers. You've put up solid reasoning and argument.
Thank you all.