Monuments to Stupidity

[Onlyforfun]

1- Can't remember which one and can't be bothered to look it up, but it was either Hazel Blears or Harriet Harman who is campaigning for the Labour deputy leadership and promised to "increase the number of minority MP's by 4 times at least".

Sorry love, but only the electorate can do that. and the polling booth is the one place we can make our choice in private without fear of being accused of rascism, sexism, gayism etc.

2- Med Hughes, Chief Constable of South Yorkshire wants to bring back hidden speed cameras usin the analogy that "I might put up Neighbourhood Watch signs but I don’t tell burglars when I am specifically running an anticrime operation.”

Shouldn't the police be mounting a constant anti-crime operation? Maybe if they caught a few burglars the public would trust them on speeding.

3- Gordon Browns tax and spend is in trouble so is now asking HMRC to get tough on taxes and extending the tax net at every opportunity.

Out of many examples of madness, I was most surprised to see that they are now chasing married couples who run a small business and use both their tax allowances to "avoid tax" (remember tax is OUR money Gordon, not yours) and pay themselves dividends rather than salaries to avoid the 40% top rate. On the other hand the Private Equity boys have managed to negotiate a special 10% tax rate on their multi-billion pound profits. And raising corporation tax on small businesses to fund a cut on large businesses?

Whatever you thought of Thatcher, at least she understood that small businesses were the backbone of the nations financial health.

4- Warning labels on booze. Not content with having every building have at minimum on the outside; CCTV warning sign, smoking policy sign, disabled access sign and on the inside; fire door signs, emergency exit signs, more no-smoking signs, health and safety signs, our dear leaders now think that increasing the warning labels on booze will somehow stop people drinking???

Frankly, if anyone doesn't know the health dangers of drinking, smoking, unprotected sex, not exercising or whatever by now I don't think labels are going to help. And to especially target the "middle class wine drinker" who after busting a gut for 12 hours in the office, enduring a crowded commute to pay for the bloated "public services" shares a bottle of wine with his / her partner of an evening is taking the piss.

This at the same time we are warned of a pensions "timebomb" because we are all living too long. Cut duty on booze and fags to a level where it pays for the NHS cost of treating the effects and leave us to get on with our lives you b s.

[Win2Win]

Out of many examples of madness, I was most surprised to see that they are now chasing married couples who run a small business and use both their tax allowances to "avoid tax" (remember tax is OUR money Gordon, not yours) and pay themselves dividends rather than salaries to avoid the 40% top rate. On the other hand the Private Equity boys have managed to negotiate a special 10% tax rate on their multi-billion pound profits. And raising corporation tax on small businesses to fund a cut on large businesses?

Agree....he's even looking at taking PAYE out of dividends now..... the small guy...keep the big happy

[Jonny2621]

1-
Whatever you thought of Thatcher, at least she understood that small businesses were the backbone of the nations financial health.

This feckless mob have made it harder to start and run a small business than ever before, more taxes, more regulations, more red-tape, more pension rules, more restrictions, more costs

They don't have a blooming clue

As long as you keep your Private Equity boys happy and paying less than 10%tax Gordon, you're a disgrace

[BULL1DOG]

Funny thing I have yet to meet anyone who voted for this lot (or admits to it )

Next time

None of the above?

[Win2Win]

I voted for them ....so did TH....and numerous others on here who constantly say so......I needed Labour in last time, as I didn't trust the bloody Tories handling the betting exchange tax.

[Onlyforfun]

5- Some bint on BBC Breakfast talking about the Big Brother "racism" incident. She accused Ch4 of showing the footage to cynically generate interest and ratings. Shortly afterwards we had the usual "in my forthcoming book about Big Brother".

All stones should be kept away from stupid people in glass houses.

6- Possible slightly obscure for some, but the London Metal Exchange has changed it's rules on Nickel lending. Basically because people have sold metal they didn't own and can't afford to buy the physical stuff to deliver, the LME has stepped in to help them by forcing anyone who owns over 25% of physical stock in LME approved warehouses MUST lend it to the market.

So lending rates plummet from $100/tonne to $20 tonne and the price drops 5%. Yet again the clever investor who spots a future supply / demand divergence and places himself and his investments to profit has his profit stolen by the authorities to help out those with less foresight.

And the promise and precedent of intervention will obviously ensure the loser is more careful in future?

[Win2Win]

PMT week OFF? :D

[piggy]

OFF i don't really mind you spouting your tory drivel as some of it actually makes a point but what really hacks me off is your continual reference to witch thatcher as if she was some kind of goddess.
"Whatever you thought of Thatcher, at least she understood that small businesses were the backbone of the nations financial health." so thats why more small buisnesses went under per annum during her "reign" than any government before or after , i know iv'e said it before but boom bust economy, mass unemployment, highest interest rates in history, the poll tax, the miners strike etc etc i lived and suffered through the thatcher years so don't quote them as a good time for this country.

[pilky201]

All Maggie Thatcher did for me was to send me to the Falkland Islands to fight a silly war over a piece of scabby land and a bit of fishing water. I ended up drinking horrible elephant lager in the rose and crown in Port Stanley picking up litter and penquins and freezing my nuts off. I also bought a Betamax video recorder (some of the older folk on here might remember those). When i flew back into RAF Brize Norton 4 months later the damn things had been taken out of circulation. Bless Her

[Win2Win]

Lucky you weren't on HMS Sheffield watching low flying French missiles coming in

[pilky201]

Sir Galahad took alot of casulties and Simon Westons book called moving on will tell you more about the war than i know

[Onlyforfun]

Piggy, I too lived through the Thatcher years and ultimately they were good for me, laying the foundations of a free market economy and the dominance of London as a Financial Centre. So I get to work in an interesting job, in a good environment for good pay, rather than working in a mine or steelworks or similar.

More small businesses went under becuae there was a massive increase in the start up of small businesses due to deregulation and inevitably many go bust, many due to interest rate rises required by teh high budget deficit to subsidise unsustainable heavy industry.

As for boom and bust having gone away, watch this space, it is merely that the current government are presiding over a huge credit inflation to postpone the INEVITABLE bust, with the probable result that it will be the worst since the 1920's (you probably think that was Thatchers fault aswell )

And if you don't like what I write, you are welcome not to read it.

[sparkyminer]

by teh high budget deficit to subsidise unsustainable heavy industry.

Rubbish. The high budget deficit was to pay for all the dole, social security et al of everyone she put on the dole.

[tophatter]

OFF, sometimes you forget that Lady Thatcher had to be dragged kicking and screaming from power by her own party because her time was done. Even now they know that times have a changed and now say and do everything the very opposite of what she did because they know that is the only way they will taste power again.

In the last two elections, after the Major defeat, they had one last try at reviving the old Thatcherite agenda. They first tried doing it with a youthful Thatcherite in WIlliam Hague and he and his policies were roundly laughed off the stage by the electorate. They then tried put in an old style Thatcherite, firstly in Iain Duncan Smith and then Michael Howard. Despite the fact we had a Labour Prime Minister trying to secure an unheard of 3rd term against a backdrop of a hugely unpopular foreign policy the right wing old school rhetoric of Howard only served to hold up the conservative vote, not advance it, and I think they increased the share of the vote by about 1%.

They now have a very different kind of rhetoric and leader but that is because they know the game is up. The only thing that links him to the conservative party is the fact he went to Eton and has stuffed his shadow cabinet full of ex schoolmates. The rhetoric has been taken from Blair and progressive social Democrats and that is the only way that mob is going to get in. The battle has been waged, the country was once too far to the left, then it lurched to the right and now it is somewhere in between. He has already said he wants to be the heir to Blair so those who have spent the past 10 years complaining about the way things are had better get used to it as this bloke has no policies of his own and so the status quo will continue if he manages to create enough apathy in the country to get elected.

It isnt us lefties who have rejected and killed off Thatcherism, as there were never enough of us to do that. It is the businessmen, the home owners, the middle class and the Conservative party that have done that. All Blair did was take the gap between right and left that was so obviously there. YOu cant expect the Labour party to give it back, the Tories have no one to blame except themselves.

I wont even go into the reasons why I think Thatcherism ultimaltey failed becuase events since have confirmed it was only ever a transition period and that while she was certainly a radicaliser she was ultimatley a one trick pony and so entrenched with dogma when circumstances dictated a change she was found wanting. She got away with it the first couple of times due to weak opposition and political sleight of hands but she was roundly rumbled the third time in the late 80's/1990.

Finaly Im sure Dave Cameron has only appointed an ex editor of the News of the world to his team for his political expertise and not as a spin doctor, because heaven forebid, even an ex Tv Advertising sale rep like Cameron, realises one of the major charges agianst Blair was he was too fond of spin, or could it just be this is another aspect of blair he is apeing?

[bigcumba]

Piggy, I too lived through the Thatcher years and ultimately they were good for me,

That sums up the whole Thatcher era ... I'm alright, the rest of you....

[sparkyminer]

so the status quo will continue if he manages to create enough apathy in the country to get elected.

Unfortunately I fear not TH, unlike Tony Blair who was able to keep the far left at bay. I don't think Cameron will be able to or even want to keep the far right away.:)

[tophatter]

Hope you are right Sparky, because if you are correct that means he wont win the next election.

What the right dont realise is they lost because their policies were wrong for the world we now live in. Cameron is dead right when says everytime his party looks back they are damaging themselves. I actually believe he is sincere in this belief because it is so obvious. How he deals with the right wing space cadets in his party is his problem, if he is as good a reformist as Blair and as good a political strategist he has a chance, if he is all mouth and no trousers he will fail.

[tophatter]

1- Can't remember which one and can't be bothered to look it up, but it was either Hazel Blears or Harriet Harman who is campaigning for the Labour deputy leadership and promised to "increase the number of minority MP's by 4 times at least".

I had a little search on google trying to help you out by finding out OFF. Unfortunatley when I typed in a search looking for such I was flooded with results from The conservative party and the leading one was actually from their own propagandasite (sorry i mean website) and included the following quote



Until we're represented by men and women in the country, regardless of race or creed, we won't be half the party we could be.

My plan for positive action is based on clear principles. Guaranteeing more women and ethnic minorities are selected in winnable seats.

Ensuring that someone's potential to be a good MP is the only factor that counts in being selected as a parliamentary candidate. And preserving the autonomy that constituencies have to select the candidate that is best for them.

So today I am announcing five decisive steps that will increase dramatically the number of women, and black and minority ethnic Conservative MPs.

First, and with immediate effect, I am today freezing all candidate selections.

No more candidates will be selected until we have established a system that guarantees increased diversity, fairness and meritocracy.

Second, we will draw up a priority list of our best and brightest candidates from the existing candidates list and from new recruits.

The priority list will be representative of Britain today…

… at least half the people on it will be women…

… and it will include a significant proportion of people with disabilities, and from black and minority ethnic communities.

I want to make it clear that "brightest and best" does not mean youngest and most metropolitan.

The priority list will welcome women of all ages and backgrounds…

…the fifty-three year-old whose children have just left home, as well as the thirty-three year old who has yet to start a family.

The priority list will be drawn up by the Party Board's Committee on Candidates

---------------------------------

So the querstion has to be asked, is it a monument to stupidity to take action to increase representation of hithertoo under representated members of the population in our parliament, or a plain piece of sensible party politics. Dont forget that the Debuty Labour leadershiop contest is to be deputy leader of the labour party and as such to help that party progress, it is not to be confused with trying to win a general election.

[Win2Win]

It could be worse....we could of had Bush

[piggy]

Piggy, I too lived through the Thatcher years and ultimately they were good for me, laying the foundations of a free market economy and the dominance of London as a Financial Centre. So I get to work in an interesting job, in a good environment for good pay, rather than working in a mine or steelworks or similar.

More small businesses went under becuae there was a massive increase in the start up of small businesses due to deregulation and inevitably many go bust, many due to interest rate rises required by teh high budget deficit to subsidise unsustainable heavy industry.

As for boom and bust having gone away, watch this space, it is merely that the current government are presiding over a huge credit inflation to postpone the INEVITABLE bust, with the probable result that it will be the worst since the 1920's (you probably think that was Thatchers fault aswell )

And if you don't like what I write, you are welcome not to read it.

i like political debate, i enjoy it very much and i believe it is my duty to tell the truth about thatcherism so the younger members on here that maybe don't know the real truth are not mislead by rhetoric that is based on falsehoods. i myself am a bit of a dinosaur, a real socialist the sort that the labour party doesn't want anymore with core beliefs like equality for all, freedom of all, i might not like what you say but i would fight for your right to say it, in my time i have been a shop steward and ended up on a right wing employment blacklist, i was a leading light in the anti poll tax movement and travelled all over the north lecturing on how to keep the baillifs out, my phone was tapped and during the second poll tax march i ws followed by plains clothed police who filmed me all day, if i tell you that at the so called poll tax riot a 74 yo lady told me she heard two policeman chatting and one said when does the trouble start, at the second poll tax march when we where in hyde park listening to speeches a group of long haired yobs started shouting abuse and throwing bottles a group of us went over to try and quite them down and in the ensuing melee a couple of wigs came off and they then legged it to our chants od bye bye specials, of course you probably won't believe a word of this but thre thatcher years to me mean 16% interest that was the final nail in the coffin of MY small buissness, being blacklisted so i couldn't get a mainstream job, being followed, filmed and listened into just because i protested against something i beliueved to be unfair.

[mathare]

And if you don't like what I write, you are welcome not to read it.

Is he not also welcome to disgaree with it and to voice his disagreement?

[Win2Win]

Is he not also welcome to disgaree with it and to voice his disagreement?

Not if he hasn't read it no?

[bigmazey]

Piggy,

I was witch hunted out of the Labour party because I was the Secretary of KLAPTU(Kilmarnock&loudon anti poll tax union). We had public meetings where hundreds of people attended yet my local constituency Labour party was wanting to throw me out cause I was to political. They believed I was a member of the Militant Tendancy due to my work within the Poll tax Campaign but I was not. I was what the militant referred to as a fellow traveller. We worked hard for the labour party yet they wanted to throw us out. My area is now an SNP area and I believe that this is the Labour Partys own doing.

And as for Thatcher! AHHHHHH!

I first remember her for taking my free school milk away. Thatcher the milk snatcher.

[Win2Win]

She certainly milked us alright :(

[piggy]

bigmazey,
i was secretary of scarborough anti poll tax union and the labour party tried 3 times to expel me claiming i was a member of militant but they failed every time so i know where your coming from :D

[scoobydoo]

Did anyone see the Andrew Marr programme last night on Lady Thatch on BBC2? Im not a huge politics person but I found it very interesting...I guess more the historical nature of the programme. Love or hate her...she certainly had huge impact on Britain and whether you think that was good or bad depends on which side of the political isle you fall. The thing that struck me most was that in the end...its always your own side that screws you isnt it! They dont even leave it to us as voters...they get rid first...same has happened to Blair only he agreed to go...she had to be pulled screaming it seems! Fascinating programme though IMHO.

[tophatter]

It was a good programme. A little too short, as it is hard to cram it all in within such a short space of time, but interesting all the same.

I certainly give her credit as you can not be prime minister for that long without been a formidible politician. I give Blair the same credit as he made big changes to the Labour party and survived as their leader for 13 years, that is absolutley incredible, and he has managed to leave with a little bit more dignity than the lady managed. The 70' and 80's was the last battleground of post war industrial politics. The whole thing veered between left and right and Thatcher probably brought the inevetible end to things in a more brutal, but maybe more effective way, that was going to happen whoever ran the country.

My whole point about her and her followers is their revolution, like all revolutions has come to an end. She would be viewed as a crank now if she or someone of her ilk, came along because all those battles have been fought and certain corrections and realignments (not enough in my opinion) have been made to remedy some of the side effects of her policies. Cameron knows this and Blair knew it, but the big difference in my opinion between those two is that the New Labour ptoject had been evolving for years by a lot of skilful politicians, whereas the Tory equivilient is still in its infancy and I dont think they are anywhere near as shrewd as the New Labour mob were.

[bigmazey]

What with Thatchers now 81 (when will the witch ever die?) it seems as good a time as ever to state why I hate her so much.

My first 5 (Going on 500) REASONS WHY I HATE THATCHER (In no particular order)

1. As Education secretary under Edward Heath in a foretaste of what is to come, stops free milk for school children. No chance of the widely praised 'free fruit' scheme ever being Tory policy! She later deregulates school meals so all they have on the menu is burger and chips! The health of the nation was not something Thatcher thought any of her concern.

2. Shamelessly uses the 'race card' to get elected PM in 1979! (Though I wont claim her to be the first Tory leader to use this and certainly not the last!) "We are being flooded!" she asserts despite figures showing emigration higher than immigration and immigration at its lowest post-war level. Her idols are Keith Joseph (who ruined his own chance of being leader with a demon eyed rant on TV about sterilising the poor (I jest not!!)) and Enoch Powell (the 'intellectual' racist). She promotes Keith 'Eugenics' Joseph to Education Minister!

3. Monetarism! Disastrous policy of trying to control money supply. In the first of her two recessions (the worst since the 1930's), one fifth of our industrial base is wiped out and unemployment is more than doubled, there are summer riots in every inner-city in the country. Not bad for her first 2 years in office! In the first of many U-turns (see point on 'myth of strong leader'), she abandons monetarism. Polls predict Labour landslide and despite the resolute support of the press, she is the most unpopular PM on record. How could she possibly get out of this one?

4. The Falklands! In a gross piece of incompetence (or was it deliberate?) fails to avert the Falklands crisis by ignoring intelligence on the Argentine preparation for invasion in early 1982. Indeed she seems to positively encourage it by proposing scrapping the only warship we have there and having her defence secretary Nicholas Ridley openly say we didn't want the Falklands, thereby giving the impression we are not bothered about the islands! In 1978 when faced with the same intelligence, the Labour government quietly averts a war through diplomatic channels by threatening to send a taskforce. It's the classic tale, to divert attention from disastrous economic policies at home a crooked leader engages in a foreign war (except I'm not talking about Galtieri!). Perhaps Thatcher was getting advise from some of the brutal dictatorships she helped prop up in South America, "Would you like some more tea Mr Pinochet?". Number of British soldiers killed, 278, Argentines, 3000+. Blood on her hands anyone?

5. Destruction of local democracy. The beauty of not having a written constitution, having the backing of the press, having a massive majority in parliament (despite only getting 42% of the vote, less than 1 in 3 of the electorate) and having a permanent inbuilt Tory hereditory second chamber is that Tory PMs can do whatever they like. If you dont like local democracy because they vote for someone else, just abolish it like Thatcher did and centralise everything from Whitehall and unelected Quangos who you carefully select. (Yes, Thatcher invented Quasi Autonomous Non-Governmental Organisations.) The popular GLC was scrapped despite over 80% of Londoners being opposed. Londoners have to wait over 13 years before getting an assembly back and electing Livingstone as its leader once again.

If I started listing my other reasons I would never stop.

Politicising the civil service,regressive taxation,the widening gap between rich and poor,homelessness for the young, THE POLL TAX! etc.,etc.,etc.,

I rest my case

[scoobydoo]

What with Thatchers now 81 (when will the witch ever die?) it seems as good a time as ever to state why I hate her so much.

My first 5 (Going on 500) REASONS WHY I HATE THATCHER (In no particular order)

1. As Education secretary under Edward Heath in a foretaste of what is to come, stops free milk for school children. No chance of the widely praised 'free fruit' scheme ever being Tory policy! She later deregulates school meals so all they have on the menu is burger and chips! The health of the nation was not something Thatcher thought any of her concern.

2. Shamelessly uses the 'race card' to get elected PM in 1979! (Though I wont claim her to be the first Tory leader to use this and certainly not the last!) "We are being flooded!" she asserts despite figures showing emigration higher than immigration and immigration at its lowest post-war level. Her idols are Keith Joseph (who ruined his own chance of being leader with a demon eyed rant on TV about sterilising the poor (I jest not!!)) and Enoch Powell (the 'intellectual' racist). She promotes Keith 'Eugenics' Joseph to Education Minister!

3. Monetarism! Disastrous policy of trying to control money supply. In the first of her two recessions (the worst since the 1930's), one fifth of our industrial base is wiped out and unemployment is more than doubled, there are summer riots in every inner-city in the country. Not bad for her first 2 years in office! In the first of many U-turns (see point on 'myth of strong leader'), she abandons monetarism. Polls predict Labour landslide and despite the resolute support of the press, she is the most unpopular PM on record. How could she possibly get out of this one?

4. The Falklands! In a gross piece of incompetence (or was it deliberate?) fails to avert the Falklands crisis by ignoring intelligence on the Argentine preparation for invasion in early 1982. Indeed she seems to positively encourage it by proposing scrapping the only warship we have there and having her defence secretary Nicholas Ridley openly say we didn't want the Falklands, thereby giving the impression we are not bothered about the islands! In 1978 when faced with the same intelligence, the Labour government quietly averts a war through diplomatic channels by threatening to send a taskforce. It's the classic tale, to divert attention from disastrous economic policies at home a crooked leader engages in a foreign war (except I'm not talking about Galtieri!). Perhaps Thatcher was getting advise from some of the brutal dictatorships she helped prop up in South America, "Would you like some more tea Mr Pinochet?". Number of British soldiers killed, 278, Argentines, 3000+. Blood on her hands anyone?

5. Destruction of local democracy. The beauty of not having a written constitution, having the backing of the press, having a massive majority in parliament (despite only getting 42% of the vote, less than 1 in 3 of the electorate) and having a permanent inbuilt Tory hereditory second chamber is that Tory PMs can do whatever they like. If you dont like local democracy because they vote for someone else, just abolish it like Thatcher did and centralise everything from Whitehall and unelected Quangos who you carefully select. (Yes, Thatcher invented Quasi Autonomous Non-Governmental Organisations.) The popular GLC was scrapped despite over 80% of Londoners being opposed. Londoners have to wait over 13 years before getting an assembly back and electing Livingstone as its leader once again.

If I started listing my other reasons I would never stop.

Politicising the civil service,regressive taxation,the widening gap between rich and poor,homelessness for the young, THE POLL TAX! etc.,etc.,etc.,

I rest my case

Guilty M'Lud! we'll now move onto the punishment phase..:)

Do you really think she engineered the Falklands War Mazey? From the programme, and not so much from memory myself, I know the country was in a hell of a state at the time but would she really have lost to Foot do you think in 83?

[bigmazey]

Do you really think she engineered the Falklands War Mazey? From the programme, and not so much from memory myself, I know the country was in a hell of a state at the time but would she really have lost to Foot do you think in 83?

Yes! Possibly?