10 Pays 5 STTs

[Mavrick]

Right. So I've spent the last couple of days reading about strategy, played around 30 tourneys and am showing quite a healthy return on the $2 tables which is a revelation in itself, as I've never been able to turn a profit at poker in my life. However, I never really paid that much attention to strategy in the past.

My question is, how much harder are the games when the stakes go up? I'm considering going on to the $5 tables now, but if there is a big jump in quality then I'll stay as I am as I can play a few tables at a time without any trouble so I won't get bored.

[presto]

my advice would be to keep moving up the levels as long as you stay profitable.

start with the $2 for say 50 tournies
if you can beat it then move up to the $5 for 50 tournies, (then $10 - $20 etc.... ) keep detailed records of profit / loss / time etc.... if you find a level where you are uncomfortable then simply drop down a level.

[Mavrick]

Cheers Presto, good advice. I'll wait for another 20 odd games then and give the $5 ones a try.

[mathare]

I'd say you should be governed by your bankroll and the house fee. You'd be better playing $5+0.50 tourneys than say $2+0.30(for example). I don't know what the buy-in for your $2 tourneys is but if it is much greater than 10% then move up if you can. $5 is still a starter level for STTs so don't worry about the quality of play.

Play tight and don't be afraid to fold when the blinds are low. Play premium hands and some marginal hands for a good raise as a steal in late position but don't be afraid to fold if you think you're beaten on the flop. As the blinds increase you will need to steal more, attacking the mid-sized stacks as they are least likely to play back at you.

I am putting together a proposed strategy for these tourneys. Give me a few days to polish it and I'll post it here

[eruptive plot]

Right. So I've spent the last couple of days reading about strategy, played around 30 tourneys and am showing quite a healthy return on the $2 tables which is a revelation in itself, as I've never been able to turn a profit at poker in my life..

my advice to that is "dont play the tourneys".
i played them for years hardly making any profit.play as less on the table as possible.i,ve mentioned this on a few threads.i play only $20 triple ups on pacific where the winner takes $60.think about it, only 2 to knock out,its much easier to knock out 2 than it is to knock out 7 on a 10 man table to make a divvi.
the first thing you must establish when you start a game is the type of player that you are up against,say for argument sake the blinds are 10sb and 20bb,you would not believe the amount of people that would raise every hand preflop to 80-100 chips with nothing.i'm not kidding you will get this type of player on around 40% of tables.once they do that and i'm holding a large pair i will ask a serious question to mr fish,and more often than not he is leaving the table with his tail between his legs.

[Mavrick]

I don't know what the buy-in for your $2 tourneys is but if it is much greater than 10% then move up if you can. $5 is still a starter level for STTs so don't worry about the quality of play.

The house fee is a whopping 15% on the $2 tourneys! My bank roll is rather limited when it comes to poker, but I'm now betting with other peoples money so I'll give it another day or so and move up to $5

I look forward to seeing what your strategy is mat.

[Mavrick]

my advice to that is "dont play the tourneys".
i played them for years hardly making any profit.play as less on the table as possible.i,ve mentioned this on a few threads.i play only $20 triple ups on pacific where the winner takes $60.think about it, only 2 to knock out,its much easier to knock out 2 than it is to knock out 7 on a 10 man table to make a divvi.
the first thing you must establish when you start a game is the type of player that you are up against,say for argument sake the blinds are 10sb and 20bb,you would not believe the amount of people that would raise every hand preflop to 80-100 chips with nothing.i'm not kidding you will get this type of player on around 40% of tables.once they do that and i'm holding a large pair i will ask a serious question to mr fish,and more often than not he is leaving the table with his tail between his legs.

Yeah I've watched you in them tourneys quite a few times, but I thiink I would feel too exposed with only two other players. In them 10 player tourneys I like to sit back for the first 20 odd hands and most of the time I'm only really up against 8 players by the time the blinds go to 25/50, and because there are so many players I don't think anyone really notices that I've been playing like a rock early, and when I do pick up a couple of nice cards, I still seem to get enough action for it too pay off.

I might have a go though on one of them triple ups to see how it goes

[mathare]

The house fee is a whopping 15% on the $2 tourneys! My bank roll is rather limited when it comes to poker, but I'm now betting with other peoples money so I'll give it another day or so and move up to $5

You only really need 20-30 buy-ins so if you have $100 or so you'd be OK I reckon. Think of it as a new system bankroll if you have to.

[counterfeit]

As far as standard is concerned it is very easy to win consistently at the $5 tables - they tend to follow a pattern.

Step 1 - levels 1 and 2. At least 2 players go out playing stupid.

Step 2 - levels 3 to 5. Another 2 players limp too much and get short stacked and end up going all in with v. little and going out

Step 3 - level 5 and up. Play gets really tight and eventually the last player goes out. At this stage it is important to use position to steal.

As for strategy, sit back and play tight aggressive. It's a bit more advanced than that but that's the basic idea.

[Mavrick]

Cheers counterfeit.

I've played 8 $2 and 1 $5 today and have been in the money in all of them apart from 1 $2. I've been a bit lucky in a couple of them, but hey.

It's probably my imagination, but the $5 one did feel a little bit different. I'm going to go back to the $2 ones just for a couple more days, but then I'll stay on the $5 ones.

These 10 pay 5 tourneys are so much better then the regular ones I think.

[counterfeit]

Definitely much better and easier.

My record is now 264 played - not cashed in 5. That does mean I have lost 3 in the last 50 but I am still happy with my record in these.

I would say stick with where you are comfortable - if you can make some money at the $2 level then carry on. I reckon it's possible to play 6 tables per hour so you could make $10 per hour which is not huge but it's a nice way to build the bankroll.

[Mavrick]

That is a very impressive strike rate. I played another 3 last night, but lost two of them, but I'm still at around 85%.

I think it will be a long while before I can play so many tournaments at a time. I can play 2 comfortably, if they are not at the bubble at the same time. If they do overlap then I really struggle. That was the main reason I think for losing one of the games last night.

Slightly off topic, but has anyone got the Harrington on Hold 'em books, I was just wondering if they worth getting?

[presto]

i have a harrington book (checks bookshelf) 'expert stratergy for no-limit tournaments', though to be honnest i havn't read much more than the first few chapters.

i would say that every book you read is worth the £6.99 in the long run, though some worth more than others. It also depends alot on how you personally play. 'action' dan harrington - is a very conservative player 'rock'. i personally play more of an aggressive style of poker so prefer the likes of mike caro, brunsen - and have found one of 'phil hellmuth' very good. as opposed to the more conservotive sklansky / harrington books.

so really i would advise one to match your style of play, though an understanding of every style is worth while.

[Mavrick]

Cheers Presto. I try to mix up my plays during an STT, but on the whole I would say I'm more a rock then anything else. The Harrington books that I've seen have been about 20 odd quid. I've read a Sklansky one I think about 5 years ago, but in honesty I can't remember a single thing from it as it was so boring and I learnt more in two hours the other night reading on a poker website then I did from that.

[sportingprofit]

I've read Harrington books, and think they are great for a begginer as the tight aggressive style is best for someone starting out. Whether you play a loose or tight style does not really matter as the information in the book applies to much more than that. Volume 1 will help your all round game teaching you the fundamentals. While Volume 2 is where the best inofrmation for tournament/sit n go are teaching you when you have to make moves when the blinds get high and your stack gets low.

[Mavrick]

That sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. I think I'll invest in the first two in a little while and maybe even the work book v3 once I get to grips with things.

Does anyone know of any poker sites where you get a % of your rake back every month that counts STT entrance fees and not just cash games, but has them 10 pays 5 tourneys?

Ladbrokes only seems to let you get money back on cash games, or give you points towards MTT entrance fees, but I think I would rather have the money.

[counterfeit]

Books are all very well and I have read a few but I think you could learn more watching 6 hours of the live poker million final than any book can teach you.

Over 200 hands of fantastic poker on a table that had everything you could expect to see in a poker tournament. And, as viewers we got to see the cards in every hand.

By the way, a huge amount of players read Brunson's Super System as their starter book.

Here is a summary of the whole book.

Play massive hands very aggressively.

Don't limp into pots - if a hand is worth playing it is worth raising with.

Suited connectors 78 and above are great to play becuase nobody expects you to play with such cards.

There you go - saved you £20 on buying a book that is 30 years old and horribly out of date.

[mathare]

There you go - saved you £20 on buying a book that is 30 years old and horribly out of date.

You forgot to mention dreadfully written too

[Mavrick]

Are those suited connectors only played in the bubble of a tourney or in the middle as well? And in only late position?

I know what you mean about books being a waste of time, I've bought tons over the years about gambling that I can't remember a single thing from.

I seem to be doing ok anyway at the moment in the low stakes arena. I'm already well on my way to one of them 1000 player point tourneys, I just wish I could get some of the money back instead. Maybe it will be good practice playing with quality opponents and you never know, I could get a few quid back in price money once in a while through them.

[counterfeit]

Mavrick - I didn't say books were a waste of time; at least I didn't mean to say that. If I can use football as an analogy then what I am saying is that no matter how many books on coaching you read, you will almost certainly learn more by watching games and probably by playing them.

Mat - it is badly written, in fact it stinks. He's made millions out of that book and all I learnt from it was that he is incredibly conceited and that it was more out of date than winning the fondue set on the Generation Game.

Mavrick - as for rake back you generally only qualify if you are playing through huge sums of money every month and then it can only be cash games as there is only a rake in cash not tourneys. I doubt very much whether any site would give an ordinary player any of their tourney fees back.

However, I have found that on some sites you have to ask for rake back - I certainly didnt get any on Betfair until I complained and threatened to take my cash elsewhere. At first they said I was getting a huge benefit as my player points were reducing my commission on my other bets. When I Pointed out that I use other accounts for gambling they gave me rakeback by converting my points into cash. I use the money to play MTTs - so I lose it all because I am woeful at MTTs.

I once worked out that I had lost over $500 per week over the period of 4 months in house rake. It was fair to say that extremely hacked off.

[Mavrick]

I was getting the rake back information from here:

http://www.poker-strategy.org/default.aspx?tabid=98

I hope the link is ok mods.

There are a couple of sites on there, Absolute Poker being one of them where they say that even tournament fees count towards it. I think the poker-strategy site organises it and it's completely free to setup.

Maybe you could check it out as it would probably be well worth you doing for 30% of $500 a week.

[counterfeit]

I only turnover about $500 per week on sites other than Betfair these days (I used to spread my poker around many sites but I found Betfair players to be so poor I stick to it now) so there's not much point in looking for rakeback anywhere else.

I'll have a look at that site though as I am always interested in poker sites. I stick mainly to Blondepoker for all my news, articles, blogs etc.

[sportingprofit]

I would not play at Absolute Poker as they have been involved in a big scandal where a senior executive who was friends with a shareholder was stealing money from high stakes players (est. $7m) by being able to see their holecards. They then constantly denied it and tried to cover it up. They were fined $500,000 by Kanawakhe Gaming Commission, the owner of which also owns absolute.

You can get rakeback at Betfair anyway, just open a new account.

[counterfeit]

Played 11 tables today - mix of Omaha and Hold Em. 1 loss so a nice return. Annoyed with my loss because I crashed in 7th. We had got to level 6 with 7 left (which is a first I think) and I got caught stealing out of position so my own fault.

[counterfeit]

by the way, the Omaha is hilarious.

most of the players sign up by accident because they can't read and end up not having a clue, which is nice for all of us who can play Omaha.

[sportingprofit]

by the way, the Omaha is hilarious.

most of the players sign up by accident because they can't read and end up not having a clue, which is nice for all of us who can play Omaha.

Yeh, but your still only a 60/40 favourite if you know what you're doing :splapme

[counterfeit]

Sort of true but these people are so dim they think the board plays.

Also, I am frequently amazed at how often they think 1 pair is good enough in Omaha. Even if the board is a complete blank you can almost guarantee that someone has at least two pair.

I have played 9 today and won in 8. Really annoyed with the one I lost as it was the same scenario as yesterday. I must stop it.

I encountered two new things today.

1. We got to the end of level 3 before a player went out.

2. I cashed in a $2 before I had played a hand. We lost 5 players before the end of level 2.

[Mavrick]

Update

Well I got off to a flying start with these, but my strike rate has now died down a little. I'm at around 74% now which I'm happy with. The last two afternoons I have lost my first three tourneys on the trot. I'm not too sure why as I've been playing the same sort of game, but have just been blinded away.

I think the way to do these is to not play ultra tight at the beginning like you would with a normal SNG, but just play a generally tight game in early position, but if you can play a hand for cheap, or in late position without fear of a raise then seeing a few flops seems to be the way to go as the bubble is so much easier with 2000+ chips then it is with even 1300.

These are different to normal tourneys as there is no premium for winning, so if you have a few mad-heads on your table, then a couple might get knocked out to start with, but you're guaranteed to still have one or two left by the middle of the tourney and if you haven't got much more then 1000 chips left then they seem to make your life hell, as you don't feel comfortable betting or rasing unless you have a hand you are prepared to go all-in with or to fold at a cost of 20%+ of your stack, without even seeing the flop and by the end of the tourney when your chip stack is twiddling they have chilled out because they no longer have to push as they don't make any more money winning, so the chance of them now busting out is remote.

I'm still trying to hunt these tourneys down at other sites so if anyone spots them please can you let me know as Laddies dies a death at around 3am and i'm fed up with player points when I could be getting rakeback or exchange commision points?

[counterfeit]

I had a nightmare today. I entered 2 of these and got over 2k chips in both when my connection started dropping. I was able to play about 1 in every 5 hands. I ended up getting blinded away in 1 and cashing in the other thanks to other peoples mistakes and got my cash with only 800 chips left. So, a loss for me today but I didn't try to play any more just in case the problems continued.

I didn't have any other connection problems with anything else so I assumed it was the server but nobody else was complaining so who knows.

[TheGoodGuy]

Ooooh I won that one Mav..........doesn't happen that often!!
Normally get in the top 5 around 45% of the time I reckon.

Ada.