10 pays 5 STTs or not?

[mathare]

I thought I really liked these 10 pays 5 STTs that Ladbrokes (and now William Hill and the iPoker network and maybe others) are doing but now I am not so sure. My Poker Office database has all my $5+0.50 tourneys bundled together so the ROI displayed for them is a combination of normal STT play and also these 10 pays 5 tourneys. However, they are recorded separately in my spreadsheet.

I've played 38 normal STTs at the $5+0.50 level. I have invested a total of £105 and profited to the tune of £22.53 for a ROI of 21.46%. My ITM % is 38.64%, which isn't great (I don't think). In my defence I haven't played this style of poker for nearly a year now and I have learned a lot since then.

If I now work out the same sort of stats for my 10 pays 5 double-up tourneys I see I have played 115 of them (normal and turbos combined) so invested £326.58 and made a profit of 8.94% with an ITM of exactly 60%. If I split this into separate stats for normal and turbo versions of these STTs I see my ROI for the normals is 16.33% and my ITM is 64% while my turbo stats are 6.92% for the ROI and 58.89% for ITM. Those stats are based on a sample of 25 normal equal payouts and 90 turbos.

First off, these are all small samples but there is something that stands out - my ROI is a lot less for the turbo equal payout STTs, which is not what I expected really. My results have been mixed of late, for sure, but I tend to play better in the turbos, or at least I thought I did as I concentrated more. But I am now seriously considering going back to STTs with a normal payout structure. I had planned to reach a milestone number of equal payout STTs and use the stats from those to guide my future poker but I think I have played enough to provide a useful pointer as to the right way. As I have trouble concentrating for an hour to play an STT it may be that I am better playing turbo STTs with the usual payout structure and I think that's what I will try for a while (30-50 tourneys) to see how I get on. But for now I think I am done with the double-ups

[silax]

well matt i never play turbo games but what i do know is they are much quicker then the normal games. so i don't know if you've done this or not but maybe you have just had a quick look through your post but if for simplisity you make $20 per hour at the turbo but only $10 per hour at the normal. the turbo may on paper not look as good but in practice is better

[mathare]

well matt i never play turbo games but what i do know is they are much quicker then the normal games. so i don't know if you've done this or not but maybe you have just had a quick look through your post but if for simplisity you make $20 per hour at the turbo but only $10 per hour at the normal. the turbo may on paper not look as good but in practice is better

That's why I am giving standard payout turbos a go so I have the full set and can compare turbo v normal across both STT variants. Not been a great start on that front though - I got crippled with AK when the blinds were quite high and I couldn't get my short stack alive once more

[mathare]

9th, 5th, 10th and 7th so far this evening. I hate poker at times

[silax]

just finished 17th out of 650 players got busted trying to steal with k,10 came up against 88 he hit his 8 i hit my 10 no luck there

[mathare]

just finished 17th out of 650 players got busted trying to steal with k,10 came up against 88 he hit his 8 i hit my 10 no luck there

Doesn't sound too bad a finish. Cashed surely...

[Mavrick]

I personally avoid all the turbos as they don't suit my playing style. I like to see as many hands as possible for as cheaply as I can in the early stages.

You might want to have a look at the ongame network if you haven't all ready as their 10pay 5 have 8 minute blinds so they are much quicker then Ladbrokes 10 hands per level structure but, not as quick as a laddie turbo.

My ROI at Next Poker is pitiful compared to what it was at Ladbrokes and the average player on Next Poker is horrendous. So I'm finding the speed of the game a real factor in profiting. I'm not going to move back any time soon though as the rakeback is compensating to a degree for my deceased ROI.

If you could turn a profit on a NP turbo and play a considerable amount of games in an hour then you would make a decent return just in Rakeback. I can't do it but, you'd probably have better luck.

[silax]

Doesn't sound too bad a finish. Cashed surely...

well yeah it was a cash position but only a $5 tourny so a lot of work for $22 profit need to make the top 5 to make good money but that tourny pays for the first 2 tomorrow which is ok i guess

[mathare]

I personally avoid all the turbos as they don't suit my playing style. I like to see as many hands as possible for as cheaply as I can in the early stages.

I am beginning to think the same thing. I played a few turbo STTs yesterday and my results were awful. Bet365 (iPoker) uses 4 minute blinds and you may only get 3-4 hands a level so it could be 4 levels in before I get a playable hand and by then I am short-stacked so I am always on the back foot seemingly. I've only played 5 or 6 of these turbo STTs so I am going to keep playing for a little while longer but it seems that my game doesn't suit the turbo nature of the events so I need to work on my focus issues. I think multi-tabling normal structure STTs may be the answer, playing the first few levels of one before starting a second so I always have one in the early stages and one in the later stages.

You might want to have a look at the ongame network

I looked round a few new sites yesterday and have decided that I am not going to spread myself too thinly. I have accounts with the UK bookies that run poker sites I like so I am going to stick with them for now. I can't be doing with new accounts, usernames etc. I find some of the banking troublesome too and prefer to use one account for sports, poker etc. which is what I have with the UK bookies.

I think I also need to work on my game though and have some time coming up during which I can read extensively on tournament strategy so I will be getting Harrington back out.

[counterfeit]

Mat - surely your ROI on the 10 pays 5 is adequate given that in order to finish 5th and finish the tourney takes a lot less time than in normal pay structure. Although you win less per pound staked, your hourly earnings will surely be higher.

Why don't you spend a day playing one and then a day playing the other just in order to establish how many games are possible.

[mathare]

Mat - surely your ROI on the 10 pays 5 is adequate given that in order to finish 5th and finish the tourney takes a lot less time than in normal pay structure. Although you win less per pound staked, your hourly earnings will surely be higher.

Normal or turbos? My limited stats show it takes around 45 minutes or more for the bubble to burst in a normal speed 10 pays 5 while it takes around 30-35 minutes in a turbo. I seem to recall a normal STT with a standard payout structure taking around an hour, so for the extra 15 minutes compared to the 10 pays 5 I could win an extra $15 if I win the tourney. I will compute my hourly rates for each tourney type I think just to check.

Why don't you spend a day playing one and then a day playing the other just in order to establish how many games are possible.

I can never dedicate a full day to these things, just a few hours here and there at most. I have played normal STTs, 10 pays 5s and turbo 10 pays 5s so I am playing turbo STTs to give me the full set and allow me to compare stats. Yes, my game will have changed over the years but there's little I can do to factor that it. It won't have changed that much.

[mathare]

My hourly rate for normal STTs is £0.81, for 10 pays 5s it's £0.51 and for the turbo 10 pays 5 tourneys it is £0.45.

That again seems quite telling to me - stay away from the 10 pays 5 tables, especially the turbos

[counterfeit]

Do you multi table? If not, do you think you could?

If you could treble your tables, it would only take a small leap in buy-ins to be able to make enough profit to make a living. If you could make £2.40 per hour then you could make a living by getting good enough to play the $20 tables, as you would get £10 per hour. A 9 or 10 hour day would be a nice bonus on top of your other betting.

[mathare]

Do you multi table? If not, do you think you could?

I used to multi-table when I played normal STTs as a way to kepe my focus going as I had less downtime between playable hands. I have tried it on the turbos with little success I have to admit.

If you could treble your tables, it would only take a small leap in buy-ins to be able to make enough profit to make a living. If you could make £2.40 per hour then you could make a living by getting good enough to play the $20 tables, as you would get £10 per hour. A 9 or 10 hour day would be a nice bonus on top of your other betting.

It's a nice idea but a long-term goal for me I feel.

[mathare]

Getting a bit better with these turbo STTs now. I have actually won a couple and got a 3rd place too. Still making a slight loss though ($6 in total if I lose the one I am playing at the mo).

[sportingprofit]

FYI Pokerstars has just added the 10 pays 5 sng's called Double or Nothing

[mathare]

I've been playing turbo STTs for a little while now (on and off) and in the last few days I think I have found my problem with these tourneys. I have sufficient patience to play poker and can happily fold hands that are easily dominated, in fact that's my natural game. What I can't do so easily is push some marginal situations.

I was in a turbo STT the other day and got QQ first hand. I took a guy off a good chunk of his stack with it. Next hand I got 77 and stacked someone. That left me in a good position for the rest of the tourney and I took it down without much issue. The next few tourneys I have played I have been card dead for too long and the blinds are rising and i get forced into a shove. I feel I can play the endgame well enough but I am going out with poor cards when the situations needs me to shove and cards become secondary.

Given I have patience in spades I think I am definitely going to give cash games a go. I can sit and fold aplenty there and not be eaten up by the rising blinds and be forced into the shoving territory. I have promised myself I will get certain other jobs out the way first but soon I hope to be on the low (micro?) stakes NLHE tables